WikiLeaks – “Collateral Murder”
- April 5th, 2010
- Posted in Operation Iraqi Freedom V . Opinions
- Write comment
Critical note: I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be, a helicopter pilot. Thousands of you viewers have come here via click-through on a widely disseminated, and poorly researched, article found here.
Warning: The video content contained within this post is likely to greatly disturb those who have not seen these things many times before. People die. It is real. War, as they say, is hell. Updates below.
To start things off, I will come right out and say I support WikiLeaks in their endeavors to bring about transparency in government. The government promises to do such things and fails time and time again. That said, I have several problems with their presentation of “Collateral Murder,” the video immediately below this paragraph. These errors do nothing to lend to the credibility of this organization, and if there is any desire to promote anything but transparency and truth I will cease any inkling of support immediately.
Critical Update: In the time since I wrote this post, it has become abundantly clear that WikiLeaks is undeserving of my support. They continue, time and time again, to editorialize information and then present it as hard fact. My analysis remains, but my support for the organization does not. Their stated charter is noble; the methods they use are not.
For those unaware of my background, I have spent quite a lot of time (a conservative estimate would be around 4500 hours) viewing aerial footage of Iraq (note: this time was not in viewing TADS video, but footage from Raven, Shadow, and Predator feeds). I am certain my voice can be heard on several transmissions with several different Crazyhorse aircraft, as I have called them to assist troops on the ground more times in my 26-months in Iraq than I could even attempt to guess. I need no reassurances to determine the presence of an RPG7 or an AK-variant rifle, especially not from a craft flying as low as Apache (even after the video has been reduced in dimensions to a point at which it is nearly useless).
Several commenters on Twitter and YouTube have expressed a great deal of anger towards the United States and members of its military. Many of them, unsurprisingly, have wished death on us all. Part of the problem, which is far more complex than I have the time or desire to fully discuss, lies in the presentation of above video.
What could have been the case is identified for the viewer quite readily. What certainly is true, in several key moments, is not. When presenting source media as the core of your argument, it is grossly irresponsible to fail to make known variables not shown within that media. If you are going to take the time to highlight certain things in said media, you should make certain all key elements are brought to the attention of your viewer.
WikiLeaks failed to do these things in this video, happily highlighting the positions and movements of the slain reporter and photographer while ignoring those of their company. It is also, until their arrival on scene, never clear where exactly the ground forces are in reference to Crazyhorse 18 and flight. I can make a pretty good guess, given my background. I would guess the same cannot be said by the vast majority of WikiLeaks’ target audience.
Between 3:13 and 3:30 it is quite clear to me, as both a former infantry sergeant and a photographer, that the two men central to the gun-camera’s frame are carrying photographic equipment. This much is noted by WikiLeaks, and misidentified by the crew of Crazyhorse 18. At 3:39, the men central to the frame are armed, the one on the far left with some AK variant, and the one in the center with an RPG. The RPG is crystal clear even in the downsized, very low-resolution, video between 3:40 and 3:45 when the man carrying it turns counter-clockwise and then back to the direction of the Apache. This all goes by without any mention whatsoever from WikiLeaks, and that is unacceptable.
At 4:08 to 4:18 another misidentification is made by Crazyhorse 18, where what appears to clearly be a man with a telephoto lens (edit to add: one of the Canon EF 70-200mm offerings) on an SLR is identified as wielding an RPG. The actual case is not threatening at all, though the misidentified case presents a major perceived threat to the aircraft and any coalition forces in the direction of its orientation. This moment is when the decision to engage is made, in error.
(note: It has to be taken into consideration that there is no way that the Crazyhorse crew had the knowledge, as everyone who has viewed this had, that the man on the corner of that wall was a photographer. The actions of shouldering an RPG (bringing a long cylindrical object in line with one’s face) and framing a photo with a long telephoto lens quite probably look identical to an aircrew in those conditions.)
I have made the call to engage targets from the sky several times, and know (especially during the surge) that such calls are not taken lightly. Had I been personally involved with this mission, and had access to real-time footage, I would have recommended against granting permission. Any of the officers with whom I served are well aware that I would continue voicing that recommendation until ordered to do otherwise. A few of them threatened me with action under Article 15 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice for doing so. Better officers than they, fortunately, were always ready to go to bat for me and keep that from happening. That said, if either of the clearly visible weapons been oriented towards aircraft, vehicles, troops, or civilians I would have cleared Crazyhorse 18 hot in a heartbeat and defended my actions to the battle staff if needed.
(note: The above is based on the number of times footage from a UAV under my unit’s control produced visual evidence that showed a lesser threat level than that reported as possible by either attack aviation or troops on the ground. Such footage may not have been available during this incident, and as such if the camera was thought to be an RPG the engagement of the personnel was well within any ROE I have ever seen. By making the call, I mean that I have quite literally been the voice heard over the radio clearing an engagement. It is important to note that while I was a position to influence the decision, the actual decision was not mine to make – that falls to the officer-in-charge, not the non-commissioned officer-in-charge.)
The point at which I cannot support the actions of Crazyhorse 18, at all, comes when the van arrives somewhere around 9:45 and is engaged. Unless someone had jumped out with an RPG ready to fire on the aircraft, there was no threat warranting a hail of 30mm from above. Might it have been prudent to follow the vehicle (perhaps with a UAV), or at least put out a BOLO (Be On the Look Out) for the vehicle? Absolutely without question. Was this portion of the engagement even remotely understandable, to me? No, it was not.
All in all, the engagement clearly went bad. I would have objected when I was a private first-class pulling triple duty as an RTO, driver, and vehicle gunner. I would have objected when I was a sergeant working well above my pay-grade as the Brigade Battle NCO. My assessment is based on my experiences in that very theater of operations. I did not see a threat that warranted an engagement at any point. I did, however, see the elements indicating such a threat could develop at any moment. (note: As I did, in fact, already know several things about the situation when I viewed this footage I cannot say with any certainty that had I viewed the exact same footage at the time of the incident that I would not have concluded the camera was an RPG as well.) People can make their judgements however they wish, but what is clearly visible is not the entire picture. I’ll also say that I’ve seen Crazyhorse elements do some pretty drastic maneuvers to protect troops and civilians alike. Those pilots have saved the lives of my friends many times, and a bad shoot is not going to ruin them as far as I’m concerned.
Update: I have seen several mentions of a Bradley Fighting Vehicle running over a body off in the rubble. This is highlighted at some point in the video. Crazyhorse 18 misidentifies a Canon zoom lens as an RPG7, but WikiLeaks has managed to identify a HMMWV as a BFV. I’m not even sure how that’s possible. The transcript also has the ground commander calling on the BFV crew to “drop rap” – there should be an ‘m’ between the ‘a’ and the ‘p’ – ramp is what it should read.
WikiLeaks claims to seek to shed the light on the truth, yet continues to allow such gross errors in reporting stand unchanged. There are many veterans with thousands of hours experience in both analyzing aerial video and understanding the often-garbled radio transmissions between units. It is not unreasonable to think any number of us would be willing to make sure everything is identified correctly, and all jargon is translated appropriately, before things go to the presses. Promoting truth with gross errors is just as shameful as an unnecessary engagement.
Technical issues have prompted the temporary disabling of comments on this post. As soon as I fix the problem, I will turn them back on. The exchange of dialogue is important, and will be restored as soon as possible.
Comments are back up, seems my theme did not know what to do with that many comments.
Comments are down again. If anything is unclear, I’m sure there’s an explanation somewhere in my responses to various comments.
Thank you for providing some perspective on this event. One thing not discussed in either your response or the wikileaks site is a description of the situation on the ground at the time of the incident. After reading several articles, I finally found a blog posted by a journalist, David Finkle, who was on the scene at the time of the incident. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2010/04/06/DI2010040600750.html He indicated that there was a tremendous amount of activity on the ground that day with several firefights occuring in the immediate area. He also indicated that they found several weapons including at least one RPG on the bodies. Regardless, whether weapons or camera equipment percieved to be weapons by the aircrew were present, the situation on the ground more than likely set the tone for the engagement. Its not as if an Apache was just flying around looking for people to shoot. They were flying cover for the ground troops who were engaging bad guys. They perceived a threat(real or not) and performed as trained to eliminate that perceived threat. I’m not trying to defend the actions of the pilots at all. I’m merely trying to frame the situation in a more complete manner. The “business” of war is an ugly thing. Perhaps more videos of real engagements need to be public, along with videos of the carnage caused by suicide bombers to show the global public the true horrors of war. In the heat of battle, the lines between good and bad dissappear. We can only hope and pray that our servicemen and women use their best possible judgement and avoid killing innocent civilians to the best of their ability. Its far to easy to sit here on a computer and pass judgement on the actions of others. Without actually knowing what’s truly in the hearts of those men, I can neither condemn nor condone their actions.
What a crock of shit. How do you propose that we “know[...] what was truly in the hearts of those men” (and are you referring to the American forces of the men on the ground)?
The US forces heard on the video must be held accountable for unjustifiably killing civilians. It’s not as if a rifleman had a split second to determine intent – the helicopter orbited the men and those analyzing the video feed had plenty of time to process what they saw. They all should have been relieved and discharged. Instead the matter was covered up until WikiLeaks was able to decrypt the video.
Those “civilians” were armed and heading towards an area where american troops were being fired upon throughout the day. Those helicopter pilots have thousands of hours of training, and have saved dozens of american lives by acting in a manner that places service members before political correctness. Unless you walk over there and ask those guys why they were out in the middle of the night with a few guns in a neighborhood that was in a constant firefight throughout the last day, I don’t think you have the right to judge men defending their brothers on the ground.
The American public will NEVER comprehend the realities of war. The camera man and his crew knew the dangers they faced when they embedded themselves within a group that resembled insurgents.
These things happen all the time in war. And most of the time, you won’t hear about it because the American government knows how people will react on emotion rather than logic. This was a mistake I myself can comprehend.
Let’s sum this up:
-Marine ground units were taking RPG and small arms fire from around the area
-Apache crew find a group of people who without a doubt resemble insurgents (place yourself in their foot with the information given to them at that time).
-Apache crew takes them out as they are deemed hostile.
To those of you who are disgusted at the language being used by the crewman: Welcome to the reality of war. That is something you people apparently do not and will never comprehend.
Being how my brother is in the Marine Corp, I can differentiate the difference between knowing what they are trained to do and being psychopathic murderers.
I am not by any means defending the incident that happened. I am merely putting myself in their feet and comprehending what led to these events.
The majority of American civilians will never understand. That is the main reason why you rarely see the government release such videos to the public.
“Being how my brother is in the Marine Corp, I can differentiate the difference between knowing what they are trained to do and being psychopathic murderers.”
Frank Wuterich?
it is a regretable error, but an error at that, a mistake. the only thing i see really wrong in this whole controversy is that the miliatary tried covering the incident up.
Anthony, I just stumbled upon your blog today. One of my friends had posted a link to the “Collateral Murder” vid on facebook and many people jumped to comment on it, showing disgrace and disdain towards the military and the U.S. Your analysis of this should be something that makes frontpage news. You provided an unbiased look at the events that happened and I agree with you one hundred percent. I also agree with what others have said, “former apache pilot” (whether he was one or not) brings up a good point we should all be mindful of as well. The majority of us havent seen combat, including myself. Therefore we really shouldnt jump the gun with statements that are harsh when we have no idea what we are talking about. Thank you for your service to our country, because without people like you and the rest of those who have been and are currently in the military, we would not be able to live in freedom as Americans. Thanks again for such a great post!!
Maybe if all this happens in YOUR COUNTRY… to your own brothers and sisters… to your own mother and father… to your own sons and daughters…maybe then you will feel differently about the whole thing.
It did Sept 11 2001…..none of those people at the WTC, Pentagon or Flt 93 were at war that day.
These people that attack do not wear uniforms. Makes it very hard to wait for the absolute best possible identification of friend or foe. Weapons are seen, do you really expect them to wait for a round to come through the window? All you saw were people on the outside of the building. You don’t believe that for one minute the pilots weren’t thinking about other threats that they couldn’t see? Just because the van rushed in to pick up someone doesn’t mean there couldn’t have been a threat within it. You can’t see in it so you can’t know. There was plenty of time for one of the van occupants to have haved a white flag to show they were friendly to have at least given the pilots some indication of non-hostility. Everybody has 20-20 hindsight, but for those who there, at that moment, it is not always so clear. Shoot first and ask questions later if you are in war zone, you may live longer…
This won’t happen in our own country because we have the best military in the world to keep other countries out!!
Thanks for this, I found this video to be a bit of a double edged sword. As a civilian and someone who lives in a country where there is no war, its easy (i find) to point a finger and go HOW COULD THEY (look at folks reactions to footage coming from Vietnam in the 60s). But in the heat of the battle, things have to be decided quite quickly and mistakes are made. So i get that. I could even see how they might have accidentally run over the body.
What’s sad is that the military allows their men to act as like teenagers playing Grand Theft Auto on xbox live. I do not refer to the ridiculous amount of bullets tossed at the van (that again makes sense if you look at the heat of battle theory) and i understand that you need to train men that the enemy is “the other” so that they can overcome their natural propensity to NOT kill another human. BUT surely there can be some way, in this day and age of recordings, to train the men to have a little respect?
Various men on the tape laughed (as i’ve heard guys laugh when pegging someone GTA). They snickered when the body was runover (as opposed to at least saying, Oh man! That’s just wrong). I’m not expecting them to love the men they’re shooting at and not be happy with the kill, but lording over it and cheering as if it is a natural high, is something that might have to become a thing of the past, so long as these missions are recorded.
To sum up, even the Greeks believed that you treated the enemy with respect (well the other Greek enemies anyway. Not so much the barbarians). You killed, but you did not desecrate and frankly if the pentagon wants to keep an already restless war-weary public on their side, they might need to reign their men/women in a bit verbally, that’s all.
I think if you put this video on mute and remove all the subtitles where they boys laugh or cheer (and keep it strictly military) folks might have a slightly different reaction. Perhaps one where they understand that in war, accidents happen. The best we can do is learn from them and try to improve.
Ielle,
In their defense, it’s not like they’re loving shooting and blasting and blowing everything up. If that were the case I suspect that he would have fired more than two rounds at the later recognised camera man when he was trying to run at the end of the first shooting, or would have fired again when he noticed that he was moving.
And as far as the laughing, it’s a psychological defense. If you start taking the weight of everyone you shoot at as being a living person and constantly grieving that, it would drive someone to insanity. To cope, you chalk it up as “There goes another one”. If he had been driving down the road in NY and run over someone, I doubt that he would have laughed, but it was someone that he had percieved as a threat, and was no longer a person, but “The enemy”. And it wasn’t like he was flying around looking for children to shoot at. There was alot of hostile ground forces around them, they had probably seen action before that video had started too that already had them going. He saw someone trying to evac a percieved enemy, and in the heat of battle “The friend of my enemy is my enemy” so he opened fire, having no way of knowing that there were children in the van. And upon finding the children it’s not like they left them there, or opened fire again, they did what they could at the moment that would be the most help.
I say that it’s kind of hard for anyone to really say what they did was wrong unless you were there and had to make the decision yourself.
Thanks.
Would you prefer those guys talk in a dull monotone, and feel utterly emotionless about the deaths of enemy combatants? Or would you rather they start flipping out on the radio, taking up more precious combat airwaves?
Honestly, in a situation like that you have three choices. Either laugh and joke and minimilize a horrible situation with humor, freak out and become combat ineffective because “that was so wrong”, or have experienced so much death and destruction that you become a cold, mindless killer.
Such is the reality of war.
Thank you for this clarifying information. I have a son who is a Marine and another in the Navy. I am pretty much a peacenik type but know that what they and you and all the military folks are living in Iraq and Afghanistan is really easy to criticize and condemn – until you see the reality.
We seem to have huge blind spots in this country. We don’t like to see the ‘ugly parts’ of life. The radio chatter is not even a matter of ‘what the guys say when they think no one else will hear.’ It’s a matter of life and death and sometimes the only way to face it is to say something – anything – so you don’t go insane.
No, I don’t have military experience. I do have experience serving as an animal control officer and that means, gentle reader, that I kill animals. Dogs and cats, puppies and kittens – the ones everyone says “It’s tragic!!!” but no one adopts or cares for. It’s easier to make me a bad guy than to face one’s own potential responsibility for creating the problem or for at least being part of the solution.
Try to remember when you were 19 or 20 years old. Try to imagine spending all your time thousands of miles from your home doing a dirty and dangerous job. How “appropriate” were your comments when you were that age? How thoughtful and mindful were you? Did you have the responsibility for your life and the lives of everyone around you? Were you in danger of being shot out of the air at any given moment?
Probably not. Your biggest worry may have been if you were going to get drunk that night or get laid or get to class the next morning in spite of your hangover or if you were going to Cancun for spring break week.
Think about that for a while before you start slinging grandiose statements about fitness for service. If this was a terrible mistake, it was nothing compared to the responsibility that should be laid at the doorstep of those who started this mess in the first place.
Thank you, Anthony and all service members. Thank you, WikiLeaks for showing but shame on you for not telling accurately.
You’re welcome.
“Try to remember when you were 19 or 20 years old. Try to imagine spending all your time thousands of miles from your home doing a dirty and dangerous job. How “appropriate” were your comments when you were that age? How thoughtful and mindful were you? Did you have the responsibility for your life and the lives of everyone around you? Were you in danger of being shot out of the air at any given moment?”
Then you should not be putting 19year olds there, should you? You should try to have guys like Anthony there – men not kids, specially when these type of videos and comments help portray US troops as “cowboys” similar to our former President.
There are plenty of mindful young men and women in the service. I had the good fortune to lead a squad of them myself. While I would argue that I was probably more mature at 18 than most, on account of having lived abroad when I was in my early teens, I will also say that the transformation from young adult to soldier is often one that brings with it much responsibility. The number of soldiers who fail to exercise responsibility is greatly overstated, in my experience.
Very well stated… And whoever said not to put 19 and 20 year olds out there, please, enlist when you’re 35-40 to be in the ground forces. Not many at that age that I know fit enough to handle that…
No matter who is reporting on who… EVERYONE HAS THEIR SPIN!
I, ah, do not usually comment online. But since the article I was reading directed me to this site, I will leave my 2 Lincoln’s worth. I am a professional journalist and have been so since Nam. What happened, happened, that is the long & short of it. The in-betweens are: people died; that is the news of it. & like the Pentagon Papers, Wikileaks is the bus dropping off the headlines. Without the bus, 1st, second, or third class, nobody knows a thing…retire the bus & you retire debate.
A professional journalist who begins a comment with “I, ah,…”?
Can I have a word with your editor?
Great post, Anthony. Thank you for helping.
Also, check out the link on WikiLeaks twitter feed. They found the military report, but still haven’t linked to it in their website, because they think “it’s junk.”
http://www2.centcom.mil/sites/foia/rr/CENTCOM%20Regulation%20CCR%2025210/Death%20of%20Reuters%20Journalists/6–2nd%20Brigade%20Combat%20Team%2015-6%20Investigation.pdf
Two RPGs were found on-site. Two adult survivors in addition to the two children.
Interesting, thanks for posting.
The military posters here seem to regard as morally equivalent the entirely different matters of pilots mistaking a piece of civilian hardware (camera) and therefore murdering those civilians, and citizens mistaking a piece of military hardware (vehicle) and not doing any palpable harm to anyone.
The military posters here seem to regard as morally equivalent the entirely different matters of police and firefighters using callous language as a defence against the horrors that are perpetrated by happenstance, and soldiers using callous language to celebrate horrors that they have perpetrated themselves.
The military posters here seem to regard as morally equivalent saying psychopathic things, and being heard saying psychopathic things.
Military people just aren’t used to applying normal human standards to what they do. Note how the pilots, while being amused by a dead body being driven over, double check it and conclude “Maybe it was just a visual illusion”. This is a pointless check, because the body is dead anyway and beyond help. It’s a shame the pilots didn’t stop to think that seeing civilian hand luggage as weapons might just have been a visual illusion too.
These are the reasons why the military should never be trained to psychopathy and sent to other people’s countries.
Yet the civilian posters purport to understand what they cannot possibly comprehend without having been in the same situation themselves.
Do I have to, say, drop a few rocks off a busy overpass to know that it’s morally reprehensible to do so? The whole situation of soldiers signing up to invade a foreign country on citizen’s taxes and then shooting innocents from helicopters is not in any way a matter of nuances and insights.
One thing leads directly to another, and all involved are equally culpable. It’s just that military posters are limiting their discussions to ‘safe’ (and dishonest) little categories to justify what they do.
(Having once been involved in the military myself when I was younger, it would have been easy for me to have got caught up in something like this myself. Now that we have the internet and can express our disapproval as citizens of this sort of thing, I thought I’d take the opportunity in the hope that one day it might stop. Do you find anything objectionable about that?)
You are making assumptions on matters which you cannot possibly know for certain. I do not believe any of the military posters whom I know personally have been in any way dishonest. You are fully welcome to form your own opinion and voice it as you see fit.
Were dishonest justification my true intent, do you think I would have actually bothered fixing the commenting system – or enabled comments in the first place? Probably not. Instead, I allow the free exchange of thoughts to continue at the expense of my own hardware and bandwidth. I’ve denied exactly one comment thus far, and it was spam for some sort of sex scam that somehow made it around my spam filter. In short, no I do not find it objectionable that you wish to express your opinions. I’d not have sworn to defend your right to do so, twice, if I had such objections.
I won’t thank you for ‘defending my right to express my opinions’ by taking part in the assault on Iraq, twice, because that’s obviously nonsense (an example of the dishonest reasoning I identified). I can and do defend my rights by non-lethal means.
But I will thank you for providing your commentary and this venue for free discussion. Thanks. I think I’m done here.
First, thank you very much for your analysis and comments. I continue to be surprised that no one in the comments about your analysis mentions the individual being tracked from 4:08 to 4:16 in the video who appears to be peeking around the corner of a building at the Apache and holding either a huge camera lens or an RPG. Even though the decision to engage has already been made, it is very suspicious behavior in a dangerous situation.
Second, I’m disappointed with your exchange with Rod. You state: “Yet the civilian posters purport to understand what they cannot possibly comprehend without having been in the same situation themselves.” And you fell right into the, “You’ve never been there or done that, so you have no idea” trap that indicates you have a much lower opinion of the position of those without military experience. You also follow Rod’s lead and paint all “civilian” posters with the same brush. That’s unfortunate, because Rod is right that one does not have to experience an action to understand it’s wrong, regardless of the circumstances. And you are right that Rod goes too far in saying that none of the actions in this video are possibly understandable.
You then get into it even further, and lose me even more, by suggesting that Rod has some nerve arguing with you after you signed up twice to defend his rights. You weren’t that blunt, military folks rarely are on this issue, but by making that statement, you are very clearly challenging his right to speak and at the same time indicating your moral superiority. That’s a shame because it reduces the impact of your very strong arguments above. Rod does a very good job batting down the notion that he needs you to defend his rights or that the war in Iraq have anything to do with defending his rights. Iraq never had the capability to threaten Rod’s First Amendment rights, so no action in Iraq has anything to do with defending those rights.
These discussions and analyses must be about nuance. Broad statements or challenges indicating your moral superior just reduce the conversation to drivel. Based on your conversations, I don’t think you actually believe you’re morally superior – and maybe I’m wrong about that – but you certainly did allow yourself to wander into an unfriendly area and chose to fire a few unwise rounds yourself.
Keep up the good work. I’ll continue to read. I generally find you very insightful.
Matt,
You raise several good points, and I’ll admit I’ve chosen words in my exchange with Rod rather poorly. I won’t make any excuses for doing so. Broad sweeping generalizations simply aren’t a good thing.
Rod, don’t bother. This is my first time here and I’m already well aware that this is a military justification site. It’s true that Anthony has clear qualifications to make his judgement calls. The real question is whether he’s making correct judgement calls. One can be qualified and still have one’s opinions be tainted by experience with the subject matter, sympathies with the actors in question, or even a personal agenda. I see no reason to assume that Anthony’s judgements are any more valid than any other person’s who has watched this video.
As an aside I have serious concerns that in an area where fighting took place, the first instinct of the military was to kill rather than to try to detain the “assumed” combatants for questioning and possible information regarding where OTHER combatants might be found and who their accomplicies in government,etc… might be(if any). Killing is the least productive result of a possible combative situation. Information wins wars…not more dead bodies.
Did you ever imagine that my reasoning for leaving the service might have had something to do with the overwhelming feeling that my combat tours (and thus my service) had little, or nothing, to do with defending the Constitution?
You’re welcome though, anyway.
How do you know who is a veteran and who is not? Must a poster present their CV before offering an opinion? Do only the opinions of veterans count in matters such as these? Of course not is the answer to all of these questions.
It’s incredibly presumptuous to believe that only people who have military experience can observe a situation or set of facts and reach a rational, accurate conclusion about them. The veneration of veterans in this country is completely out of hand.
Completing boot camp and shipping out doesn’t mystically impart some sort of wisdom or perspective on a human being. If anything, one could argue it colors one’s judgment and impairs impartiality. Just read the comments herein.
“These are the reasons why the military should never be trained (removed pointless attack on service members) and sent to other people’s countries.”
Then you shouldn’t have sent us to someone’s country. That’s right, you sent us; your neighbor, your mother, your friends, they sent us. The military does not choose when to go to war. That’s the thing about democracy everyone likes to ignore.
Although I agree with your assessment (and came to the same conclusions sans any military training), this sentence is particularly egregious:
“Promoting truth with gross errors is just as shameful as an unnecessary engagement.”
If you honestly believe this, you lack any ability whatsoever to assess the morality of the actions displayed in this video. Drawing an equivalence between the cold blooded murder (in flagrant violation of standing ROE, not that it matters) of a van full of civilians, including children, rendering aid to the wounded- and a civilian making an error about the identity of a military vehicle and not spotting an RPG tube? Jesus Christ, get a grip.
Read my updates. While I do still believe both to be equally shameful, I can fully understand your opinion. Having both journalism training, and military training, I find the flagrant disregard for the cornerstones of either to be equally sad.
Your comment epitomizes what I find so problematic about much of the commentary about these videos, including the line I called out. It’s undeniably true that both journalism and warfighting are necessary professions in a democracy, and that both journalists and soldiers ought to be held to the highest standards. However, we need to be able to distinguish between kinds and degrees of professional failures- to simply say that they are both professional failures and therefore equivalent is baffling to me, because you are either suggesting that the wikileaks errors/misrepresentations are the equivalent of what amounts to a war crime (I assume this was not your intent), or that the shooting was merely a lapse in professional judgement.
I think it needs to be acknowledged, and widely, both within the military and outside that the Apache crew was grievously in error here- they had vested in them an enormous responsibility by The People to complete a mission- to kill the enemy while supporting the overall goal of winning the hearts and minds of the populace. They absolutely abdicated this responsibility, and were therefore derelict in their duty. As I’m sure you know all too well, this kind of action results in reduced popular support for the US and for the IG, and costs lives. Treating dereliction of duty as a professional lapse (or simply ignoring it, as the military did here) rather than cause for a court martial ultimately results in more dead civilians, more dead soldiers, and more insurgents. That’s why I think it’s important not to downplay the severity of the crime here.
Thanks for reading.
Honestly, in my opinion wrong is wrong. Kicking a dog is wrong. So is shooting an innocent man. I detest those who would willingly do either.
At any rate, I am not sure how much more clear I can be that there is no way I can fathom the engagement of the van as remotely justifiable under any ROE I have ever seen based on what is shown in the video. I have outlined the single case I find plausible for the initial engagement being defensible. That case ceases to matter the moment the conversation about shooting a van picking up casualties is mentioned. That said, there is more to this incident than can possibly be illustrated by a single gun-camera and some radio communications with a ground element.
the man is just passing along information of the video. when i watched the video when the van pulls up two people come into view… the video quality is not clear enough to see… there is a blob of white in the right front seat of the vehicle.
terrorist dress in civilian clothing
yes anthony agrees the gunner should not have shot the van. and from reading every post here it would seem everyone agrees that as well.
and the way i read anthony’s comments his point is those who edited the video did a poor job of objective journalistic reporting.
if you want a view from the other side of this war you can find it by visiting liveleak.com and view the terrorist using video’s for recruitment tools ( propaganda )
i suggest you go and play in your sandbox in your backyard… it is obvious you have never been in that sandbox over there.
Anthony is clearly more than capable of defending himself, but thanks for the barely-literate screed, it gave me a few laughs!
Anthony, I respect your professional knowledge on this matter (certainly I know nothing about rules of engagement or battlefield protocol) but I think your objections miss the bigger point here.
WikiLeaks released a video containing evidence that the military tried to hide. That’s what matters here. Whether their comment is objective or not, or professionally checked by a military experienced person or not, is not relevant. It’s a piece of evidence and should be taken for that and that alone. If it had been released as anonymous, without any comment whatsoever, it would have had the exact same value. If it was accompanied by a Michael Moore-style incendiary voiceover, it would still be critical evidence with the same ultimate value.
By objecting to WikiLeaks’ comments, you are somehow undermining the credibility of the video to the eyes of the general public, even if your comments are fair and balanced (and I believe they are). You are, perhaps without meaning it, helping the case for less transparency, not more, and that contradicts what you state in your blog.
Thanks. I disagree re: helping the case for less transparency.
See the following link for my exchange with someone close to the WikiLeaks organization:
http://rop.gonggri.jp/?p=149
Anthony, I checked your exchanges on the collateralmurder blog, and I think it was yourself who summarized my point pretty well:
AJM dixit: “None of those details ends with a different picture – the shoot was wrong.”
Regards.
Good insight Anthony, but a tad self serving in there. And you missed an extremely important part of the story that Tom pointed out, and that is why the Apache’s were there in the first place…there was fighting in that imidiate area all day. And ielle….good observation about the ‘language’ of the troops..however, that bad/insensitive talk is more a result of their attitudes, and who they really are, their character..and they are, unfortunately, like so much of our society. Reigning them in will do zero to change that.
Not sure how exactly I was self-serving. I certainly get no pleasure from this, my only goal is to provide perspective that was sorely lacking from the release. I know there was fighting in and around the area in that timeframe. That very same week I was nearly killed by one of eleven 107mm rockets that fell on my base not all that far from the location of this incident. There were several more that failed to launch; thankfully we only lost one soldier that day. I do also note that what we have seen is not the full picture, and that absent having actually been in that helicopter nobody knows exactly what happened. I can come up with a plausible scenario in which the initial engagement was perfectly within the ROE; I cannot do the same where the van is concerned. Frankly, the talk does not bother me at all. I’m actually surprised what was heard was not far worse.
Taking Tom’s comments on the situation on the ground at the time, I thought the pilots did a fine job. If the stupid Reuters reporters wanted to hang out with guys armed with AKs and RPGs, which can be clearly seen in the video, well, they got what they had coming to them. That was just plain ignorant.
However, I’m not sure why the pilots engaged the van. That seemed to be the only mistake I saw.
mistake that cost innocents lives o well
No Tom, the whole thing was a mistake. There was no RPG aimed at any aircraft. Furthermore, I am not sure there was any RPG in the video at all.
I am glad you at least admit the van was “the only” mistake. Boy,
that “only mistake” was certainly a big one. The helicopter pilot imaging system is much clearer than the video we see. Surely, the pilot would have seen those children in the van.
No excuses, our military f’ed up.
I meant to say John, not Tom.
It is well that war is so terrible — lest we should grow too fond of it.
American “heroes”is there one for example
It really saddened me to see this. I’ve played a lot of “shoot em up” games, and upon seeing this video I became disgusted with myself for enjoying those games. I got this sick, sinking feeling when they fired on the van. Such a waste! I think we need to seriously consider bringing our troops home safe to their families and stop trying to police the world.
Ah yes, *war reporters* are very ignorant to be seen anywhere near people carrying weapons. “Hey get away from me with that gun will ya! I’m trying to report here! Damn! If you don’t get rid of that thing I’ll … I’ll…”
So I guess US embedded reporters are ignorant and should be killed on sight too, as should any other civilians who are unfortunate enough to be seen near armed people in an urban war zone.
The ‘insights’ of the military and their apologists are truly a precious thing indeed.
John: that “mistake” was a violation of the Articles of War, a war crime punishable under the UCMJ. The pilots wanted to engage so badly, they disregarded what was occuring on the ground. This is not only embarrassing to the US, but will likely turn many Americans against the war. The DOD needs to do something quickly to right this mess.
I am glad to hear some members of the military like you show good judgement. It is of much consolation to me, since I have seen and heard more cases of poor judgement by our military than good judgement. It does appear though that this kind of incident is representative of U.S. military conduct in Iraq. We probably need more soldiers like you.
However, I do think your minor criticism of Wikileaks is insignificant relative to the good that this Wikileaks does. I am ecstatic that the truth about our military conduct is being revealed to the American public. America has a lot to be ashamed of in this war. Your worry about Wikileaks not providing background and context info. in this video is nothing in comparison to the good they are doing in getting this stuff out. In this case, the video speaks for itself, no excuses, a clear case of misjudgement by our military again.
I believe there is a systemic problem and this is not an exception.
With all due respect, you have absolutely no concept of the quantity of good judgement exercised by our military. This is true, sadly, because the exercise of such judgement is not newsworthy. To put it simply people do not care when others do the right thing, at least not in a capacity conducive to earning a profit. Allow nobody to fool you, media are businesses.
That’s a pretty arrogant thing to say Anthony. I suspect most military persons, and right-wingers, would consider me a far-leftish person. I don’t think so but even if that’s true, I can tell you that most of us on this side, a slim majority it’s true, think the military gets it right more than they get it wrong. Our issue is mainly that they go to WAY beyond extreme lengths to cover for each other and even people who aren’t involved in specific incidents, like bloggers, seem to find ways to minimize negative actions taken by some of these soldiers. I don’t expect soldiers to be perfect. I expect mistakes. I am appalled at the lack of concern for dying persons and wounded children. Being amused about driving over a dead body with a tank is deplorable. Isn’t there a way to do an extremely stressful and difficult job with a little compassion and humility?
“I am glad to hear some members of the military like you show good judgement. It is of much consolation to me, since I have seen and heard more cases of poor judgement by our military than good judgement.”
Your sampling is biased.
The kind of thing shown in this video happens something like a thousand times a day in Iraq. The big majority of the time they correctly decide not to shoot. Maybe a hundred times a day they do decide to shoot and usually they are right to kill the Iraqis they kill.
You mostly only hear about it when something goes wrong.
But remember, most of the time, hundreds of times a day, they are killing the right people.
This is necessary for us to help Iraq. If we don’t kill those people Iraq might descend into chaos.
I see your observations, but, we are still missing the fact that the individuals did nothing to suggest they were hostile; then the comments by the individuals are just unjustified; I have not remorse or accept any excuse for killing kids – that just lame and not excusable; a simple backing off and trying to contact would be a few less Iraq casualties and maybe less hostility; what does one expect when individuals fly high and shoot individuals like that; that not respect that cowardice!
Anthony, thanks for calling out the gross negligence of WikiLeaks. I was apart of the surge in troops during this time period and was based in SE Baghdad.
Context is everything! You also make a great point on how easy it is to second guess those on the ground (or in the air) AFTER the fact.
I would also like to point out how WikiLeaks edits the video to give a closeup of the kids in van after they post a response from a Commander as to his knowledge of the injured children. Again, those involved in the action cannot see all things at all times and the focus of the pilots was on the movement of those on the ground and looking for weapons. It would have been insanely difficult to ID what would have amounted to two dots (on a video screen) in the eyes of the pilots as children.
If you were w/ 3/3ID we were in the same place at the same time. Greetings, from the SGT formerly known as Hammer 3N (and way before that, Hammer Xray/3G/3D/37D).
Accepting your theory that they would not have seen “what would have amounted to two dots (on a video screen) in the eyes of the pilots as children.”, how are we to believe that they identified even smaller dots as weapons?
You also make the point that “those involved in the action cannot see all things at all times and the focus of the pilots was on the movement of those on the ground and looking for weapons.” Isn’t this exactly WHY you should be absolutely sure before you fire? It’s not like they were under fire at the time.
Finally, a question: Is it illegal for an Iraqi citizen to have a firearm? I don’t know the law there so I’m just wondering. Is it possible that the persons carrying arms had a right to… such as protecting the journalists or something? I guarantee you if my country was a battleground I’d be carrying a weapon to protect me and mine.
Good question regarding spotting the children vs. spotting the AK and RPG. The difference being that the weapons were in the wide open while the children were inside the van and almost entirely obscured from vision.
Yes, Soldiers do their best to ensure the safety of noncombatants. To that end, they cannot go through every building and every vehicle before opening fire. We must remember that in this situation, there was an ongoing operation where small arms fire was previously exchanged with AIF as well as US forces receiving RPG fire (this fact was left out of the video commentary). Based on what I saw in this video under these circumstances, it appeared that these armed men were apart of the attacks on coalition forces.
Lastly, this is another great question that many may not know about. Iraqi’s are allowed to possess one AK47 (and one magazine of ammunition) for home protection only (that is one per home, not individual). The “home protection” part is key as they (all Iraqi’s) are not allowed to bring the weapon outside of their home unless they are police or military. They are not permitted to have RPG’s under ANY circumstance! All Iraqi’s know this, including the kids. So by brandishing AK’s and an RPG outside, in the middle of an ongoing coalition force’s operation, is indicative of nothing short of enemy activity.
To Anthony:
I was at COP Sallie (and spent a little time at COP Cleary).
No, an Iraqi with an AK is about as common as a Texan with a cowboy hat. An Iraqi with an RPG, on the other hand, is not normal.
“A few of them threatened me with action under Article 15 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice for doing so”
Isn’t this really the crux of the issue. There are too many that ar sent there with a mindset to kill. (Thanks for your analysis. The RPG was pretty clear. It should have been called out if wikileaks was unbiased. But then the URL sums up their position.)
Anthony : Thanks a lot for posting this, I was one of those who were actually pretty shocked and angry seeing the footage but your “breakdown” of the article actually helped me understand and brought me back to reality that they were in a war, mistakes can be made. But the thing that I appreciate your post the most was that you called out the mistakes, and the obvious ones too instead of going for the “they’re there to fight for us, they’re risking their lives, they’re heroes, give them a break” routine which most of the ignorant folks likes to argue.
That war was never for the citizens of the US as some posters here have said, we went to war there because a bunch of idiots in the WH (bush wanted a war in his resume and cheney wanted money). There was no threat in Iraq, yes, Osama may have been hiding there but that’s not a cause for war. If there’s a murderer hiding in a city in the US, do we bomb the heck out of that city and accuse them of harboring a murderer ?? No, there are other ways. Now we have good soldiers dying over there and are put in a position to kill innocent civilians (whether intentionally or not) because of this war. I appreciate people like that knows the truth and are not afraid to speak about it. I hope this does not get you in trouble and affect your family. Thanks again!
Jay
The wikileaks video is incredibly low quality, having been scaled down, possibly several times, and having been re-encoded, also possibly several times.
I haven’t seen what TADS video looks like in the cockpit, but its hard to believe that its so low quality. Its possible that the video recorded is of a lower quality and resolution from that displayed in the cockpit.
I also understand the AH-64 TADS has a replay feature, so it would have been possible for the gunner to review what he had seen. There was one moment in the video where the journalist brings his camera up to take a picture round the corner and the gunner calls out that they are being fired upon. The helicopter then moves so that the Iraqis are obscured by a wall, and the gunner could have reviewed the footage to confirm at that point.
Its also interesting to note that none of the Iraqis ever look in the direction of the helicopter. Its appears they cant see it or hear it. Looking at the TADS onscreen numbers, it seems that the helicopter is at 1000m distance or so, well beyond the range at which an RPG is a threat to the helicopter.
To my mind, the attack on the first group is questionable. I see one AK, one possible RPG, and two people with shoulder bags, and a bunch of others that are clearly unarmed. At one point the guy with the possible RPG is leaning on it like its a walking stick or something – he appears to put one end on the ground and put all his weight on it.
The attack on the minivan is absolutely wrong. In my first viewing, I didn’t see the kids (though they may have been more visible in a higher resolution source video). The gunner calls out that they are possibly collecting bodies and weapons, when its clear that they are unarmed and collecting a single wounded man. At this point, no-one is a threat to anyone. Its cold blooded murder.
I understand that the Iraqi police report listed this incident as “Random American Bombardment”. Its interesting and damning that they have such a category.
There a quite a few people here who are trying to interject their political views rather than their factual views. Some people say that the average American is not stupid. I tend to disagree with that assessment.
Oh and also, the posters here that are “screaming” at Anthony for dissecting wikileaks video and calling out their unfair process, needs to understand that he’s goal is to have truth in all aspects of the story. If you need to further understand truth in reporting, watch “Bill O’reilly” (or any media shows on Fox) and then you’ll understand what bad media is, showing highlights to express your own agenda is not journalism, it’s propaganda. I appreciate what wikileaks is doing, but I just hope that they learn something from this. If they had shown the video without the highlights (maybe just the captions), then people can decide for themselves and we all know how we’ll all feel but adding those highlights to provoke more anger again makes it a propaganda and not true journalism…but maybe that’s what wikileaks’ intention is.
I’m not sure about just the captions… Clearly the person doing the captions did not have a clue. I noticed many errors that were so obvious it was almost comical.
Hey Anthony, can you comment on Julian’s interview specifically on his response to the question of “rules of engagement” at 2:20 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QEdAykXxoM
Thanks!
It’s unfortunate that the Reuters cameraman and driver were killed. But its also the job they chose, to work in an active war zone, they weren’t at Disneyworld. They also happened to be in the company of armed insurgents. One guy had a rifle one had an RPG. You couldn’t tell right off the bat that the Reuters guys were carrying cameras, being in the company of guys with weapons it’s a natural assumption they had weapons too. The helicopter crew’s job was to engage armed insurgents thats what they did. They don’t make policy they follow orders.
If the helicopter crew were shot down and dragged through the streets I guess thats okay. When the camera was being pointed at the helicopter it’s easy to see it is a camera with a telephoto lens, because your told he had a camera with a telephoto lens and your not in a helicopter worrying about being killed, getting a brief glimpse, your watching it at your leisure drinking a half caf double latte. Shooting the van, in their view it was insurgents helping other insurgents. So let them get away so they can kill an American the next day. They didn’t say Hey let’s kill a Reuters photographer. The kids, very unfortunate but the helicopter crew didn’t have the luxury of two arrows pointing them out with the words “children”.
Making the United States troops out to be animals is unjustified. You can see the medics running with the kids. Why? Because they gave a shit. They wanted to take the kids to a military hospital, they were ordered to let the Iraqi police handle it. This isn’t some kind of mini My Lai. it’s not “collateral murder” it’s blatant anti U.S. bias.
“When the camera was being pointed at the helicopter it’s easy to see it is a camera with a telephoto lens, because your told he had a camera with a telephoto lens and your not in a helicopter worrying about being killed, getting a brief glimpse, your watching it at your leisure drinking a half caf double latte.” – they don’t seem in such a big rush, they are really taking their time, and I don’t think they felt threatened since the people on the ground didn’t even see them. I think the problem is with the way the war is turning into some kind of video-game. why risk the life of the precious american soldier when you can just kill insurgents and civilians from a safe distance and let god or in this case allah sort’em out. and hey, it’s not like we’re killing people, they’re just these… little figures on our screens.
anyway, well done, usa. you’ve managed to kill more iraqis than saddam would’ve managed to. you really freed the **** out of irak.
The reason it is so important to engage a van taking dead bodies seconds after the first wave was killed is because: If one of the original people shot happened to be Osama bin ladin(and or someone important) and you let some BLACK un-marked van come and pick his body up and take it away. You will never ever know if he is dead or gone and the enemy will play into this concept and continue his legendary Anti-hero status. Please stop the ignorance.
Sorry, that doesn’t fit the ROE in any way. If you had said “because the were being overwatched by men armed with RPGs shouting ‘Kill the Infidels’ and burning a coalition uniform, but that wasn’t shown in the frame” (and I’m not suggesting this was the case, this is an example people) I would agree it might well need to be destroyed. My assessment, as it is clear in the post, is based on the information readily apparent from the video.
I have so many conflicting thoughts about this video. First off, I can justify the initial engagement — right, wrong or indifferent. But when the van pulls up to evacuate the wounded, I don’t understand the rationale for that. Maybe it was the “police chase” syndrome where everybody was amped up, but that’s still no excuse. The army brass’ white-wash of this event is bigger problem. Clearly, the second attack on the van was uncalled for. Instead of making excuses in their reports, the military should have taken some disciplinary action — maybe they did, but it doesn’t sound like it. So instead, now they are faced with another PR disaster where heads are going roll. That’s what happens when you let an open wound fester. As for the release of this video, maybe WikiLeaks should have considered how people who already hate the United States are going to react. I mean, why stir the pot? Is it to sell ad space on their website, or do they just want to pour gasoline on the fire? Seriously, I think the military may have stuffed this video away for good reason — perhaps in the interest of national security. I bet that never occurred to WikiLeaks.
Here’s how I really feel — we never should have been in Iraq in the first place, so you can just ring this up as just an ancillary piece of crap in the larger mountain of shit otherwise wise known as the War in Iraq.
Hi,
I am not an American and I am not an Iraqi,
I am from Croatia,Europe.
Can somebody tell me what is the main reason for the American forces to come in Iraq? I mean seriously…
I am just listening to this song and I would like to share it with you…
Feel like I´m fixin to die` rag
Come on all you big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again.
He’s got himself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in desert lands.
So put down your books and pick up the gun
We’re gonna have a whole lot of fun!
And it’s 1 2 3 what are we fighting for?
Don’t ask me I don’t give a damn!
Next stop another Viet Nam.
And it’s 5 6 7 open up the pearly gates.
There ain’t no time to wonder why
Whoopee! We’re all gonna die.
Come on generals let’s move fast,
Your big chance has come at last.
Gotta go out there and break some heads.
The only good enemy is one that’s dead.
And you know the peace can only be won,
When you blow ‘em all to kingdom come!
Well come on Wall Street – don’t move slow,
Why man, this is war-a-go-go!
There’s plenty of money to be made
By supplying the army with the tools of the trade.
Just look at it my way – if you drop the Bomb,
Well, it’s all part of the fun!
Well come on mothers don’t delay,
Pack your boys off to the Gulf today.
Come on fathers don’t hesitate,
Send them off before it’s too late.
Be the first one on your block
To have your boy come home in a box!
This is one small event in a war that has been going on for years. Now people can view it and pass judgement even though they have no idea what it is like to be in a war zone.
Who goes into a hot area like this where live fire can no doubt be heard and walks around in the street with telephoto cameras among armed individuals? Who would bring children into this area? Stay inside, who knows what might happen. If you put yourself in harms way in the middle of a war, you might get shot at.
Mistakes will happen. What about friendly fire? People die from that all the time on both sides and you rarely hear about it. What about all the other chopper videos that have no questionable actions on them, where are those?
My comment is more to posters than to Anthony (though I appreciate the attempt at balanced review): Many people on here, typically with the most acidic posts, refer to the invasion of Iraq in vilifying terms. I did not agree with the invasion of Iraq–was horrified by it, in fact, because I thought it would turn out to the exactly the disaster it has become–but having said that, it’s not like the country invaded was exactly an idillic utopia. We are talking about a country where the son of the dictator grabbed a newlywed bride away from her new husband in a hotel elevator, took her to his room, participated in a gang rape, and then threw her to his dogs to die horribly. Yes, the war was a bad idea, yes, it was badly handled and, yes, we should not have done it. But lets stop pretending that Iraq was an innocent place beforehand. It was a horrible place only marginally better–and then only for a minority–than it has been since. Invading was the wrong thing to do, but only by a narrow margin. I ironic, but also very disturbing, that the people that are berating the US government and western military for the invasion and those things that have happened during and after, are also the ones wishing death on the very people they are villifying for their part in the war. Do you not see the utter hypocracy of your words? The most violent comments on here are from people loudly (deafeningly) protesting violence. If you really want to reduce the violence in the world, look at yourself, not the video.
Quote:
“All in all, the engagement clearly went bad.”
No shit.
Thank you for analyzing this! I have no experience in military at all and it was nice to see a perspective of that.
I honestly don’t think this video should have been leaked. Yes, the military should have told the truth about what happened–an accident–and it probably would have been less of a big deal if they would have just been honest in the first place. But, how can our soldiers act in these spur of the moment/life or death decisions if they have to worry that their actions are going to be posted on youtube for the world to analyze and judge? I’m guessing those servicemen didn’t sign a video waiver like an average person does when they’re put on television.
Hi,
I have a question that troubles me since I am a photographer too.
What would be the situation if the guys from the helicopters recognized the photographer`s camera with a long lens? I mean what would be the standard procedure if you see a photographer together with other people that are armed like in this case?
I was a soldier in Iraq in 04-05 and then 07-08. During my second tour I killed a man.
He was just driving home, possibly to a wife(s) and kids. But instead of waiting for the route clearance group to move on, decided to try and push through the center, right next to our EoD truck.
I killed him after repeatedly flashing him with lights. I killed an innocent man. Foolish, but innocent.
Please try not to judge to harshly these men. I cannot explain it well, if at all. But anyone who attempts to criticize either my actions or the actions of these pilots must understand something.
We don’t like killing innocent people. We don’t like being in Iraq or Afghanistan. We don’t like being the arm of the Imperialistic bastards in government. I got out, others feel like staying in. But we all feel it.
Please don’t judge harshly. It will not make things better.
That much is certainly understood, at least by those of us who have been there and done that. This incident in no way changes the fact that Crazyhorse elements have saved my bacon, and that of my friends, numerous times – at great personal risk.
What biases are you talking about? I do not care about the context (which is an unjustifiable invasion of another country), think about how you would take your own comments if the things were the other way around. If in your own towns someone was shooting up people for exercising their freedoms I doubt you would be talking about the mindset of a soldier, an error in judgment, and the fact that the media did not cover the good things your assassins have done.
Reading this made my anger cool down.
This has already been stated once, but just for the sake of being as redundant as the people who thing themilitary is full of barbarians-
It is so hypocritical to say that what they did is wrong, barbaric, and tragic if you were never in their shoes. If you never had the constant responsibility of protecting those around you, your friends, practically brothers, and knowing that if you don’t shoot this “enemy”, here and now, that minutes later you may be picking up pieces of your freinds’ bodies off the street, or be getting carried away yourself.
If you have never had to live in constant threat of attack, living out in unbearable conditions, surrounded by bizarre and dangerous animals/insects/plants, and even worse having to EAT them. Reading the journal of a ‘Nam veteran, one of the worst things I remember reading was what he had to eat while he was out in the field.
It’s a phrase that I hear all the time, “Walk a mile in their shoes, so you know what it’s like to have to choose.” But it’s usually applied to the 15 year old girl who was swooned by a smooth talking guy and didn’t think far enough ahead to wait, or the kid who’s “growing up on the street” because his parents are too lazy do get a decent job and provide a decent standard of living. But it’s never applied to a soldier. Very few people over here have ever had to make the choices that our soldiers do. Act against this person to save the life of you and your comrades, or do nothing and risk you all dying. Almost everyone that I know would would make an impulsive decision to attack another person if it were going to save the life of a friend or family member, and it only gets more likely the more pressure added to the situation.
And do you really think that, given the choice, the other side would shoot back, just because you were an “infidel”? Just some food for thought…
“Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.”
–Albert Einstein
Hi, Anthony, you did a great job in explaining the video – I’ve seen it this morning for the first time, and I’ve missed the mand with the RPG at that moment!
However, as I had one brother serving with Romanian Army in Afghanistan, for one full year (he’s back home now) and I’ve spend several years in Bosnia and Kosovo with UN and OSCE, I understand (most of) the situation, the danger and the readiness for fight of the US servicemen, and their impossibility to control fully the situation on the ground, to separate friends from foes and always take the best decisions.
What is not-very-easy-to-understand is the language/laugh etc. of the pilots, which is considered by many as offensive. Probably they are too young for this job, not in years, but in life experiences (one may say that all America is also too “young” compared with other nations, and this may be seen as an explanation for how US are acting – but this would be too easy).
However, US Army is not composed only of disrespectful helicopter pilots, it has also people like the military doctor who was running with the little girl in his arms… As the French are saying, “a la guerre, comme a la guerre” – and this may sound cynical for Americans especially, but believe me, it is true – we had plenty of such experiences here, in South-Eastern Europe. Yes, war is tragic, for everybody involved in it.
With sadness for the innocent victims, sympathy for their families, and hopes for better days,
from Bucharest,
George
THIS IS NOTHING! You should’ve seen what the Romans did in the Middle East. At least we don’t crucify anyone here.
Firstly thanks to Anthony for his analysis of the video, it’s very interesting to see it dissected from a more experienced point of view. I do feel the wikileaks analysis is biased and based far too much on knowledge after the event rather than what is known as the video happens.
As a photographer it saddens me greatly to see how this event unfolded. Personally I can understand the desire of the Reuters team to be embedded in that way as it will most certainly give them the best opportunities to catch fantastic images. They would also have known the risks involved and have accepted them as necessary.
What concerns me from the video are the misidentification of them as armed insurgents. If the video the Apache received was indeed of better quality than the wikileaks one then I see no reason why this should have been the case. I feel that it could have been a situation where the helicopter crew saw what they expected to see, rather than what was there. An understandable confusion given the other armed men but unfortunately with deadly consequence. It’s very easy to say what we would or would not do in the situation ourselves when we are sat at computers far away from the danger. I can’t say that I wouldn’t have done the same thing myself if I was sat in that helicopter.
Where I fear there is no excuse comes later in the video. Fairly soon after the initial attack the gunner seems eager to finish off the wounded man, baiting him to pick up a weapon so he can fire. Then later on the attack on the van is totally unnecessary, surely without any evidence of weapons from the people in the van they would be considered non-combatant? At the point where they are trying to evacuate a wounded man they were no threat to the helicopter or ground forces, so why engage? If the van had been marked with a red cross or similar would they still have done the same??
To me the video shows two things. Firstly, how it is very difficult for any soldier out in a warzone to know exactly what is going on around them. An innocent child with a plastic gun one day could so easily be the insurgent that kills you the next. Trying to second guess how someone should have reacted or say how you would behave is a pointless exercise as you don’t have the life or death situations hanging over every decision. The second thing the video shows to me is a level of unnecessary overkill. While I can understand someone defending themselves or trying to protect others I can’t condone the blatant killing of unarmed people.. be them insurgent, photographer, civilian or otherwise. To me this is what needs to be questioned.
My final thoughts on the subject are only that it is a pity that these videos have to be leaked for the public to see them. Why the military can’t bring itself to make events like this transparent is beyond me. I appreciate the need for secrecy and information limits but a gun camera video like this doesn’t give away vital state secrets. It just shows a mistake, so why not admit it and move on?
It must be considered that children were brought by the van driver and companions as human shields. Anyone going to pick up the wounded must have known that the U.S. forces shooting those on the scene had decided (correctly or incorrectly) that they were engaging with an armed and dangerous enemy and any attempt to rescue the wounded would – with a very high probability – be met with violence. Common sense requires us to ask, “Who would bring children into such a situation?” The fact that this happened is deeply troubling and raises suspicion regarding the intentions of the group that were engaged by US forces. Is it possible that innocent people heard their colleagues were being attacked by mistake and even though they were in the van with children decided to go and save them? Yes. Is it likely? To me, the answer to this question is … No.
I have not been in a battle situation but I have lived in various Muslim countries and it seems to me that non-combatants with completely innocent intentions – such as saving journalist friends in trouble – would never go into such a situation without finding a way to leave the children in a safe situation first.
It is important to realize that we have zero information about the backgrounds of the journalists who were killed. Let us recall the recent killing of CIA officers inside their base by a double agent. People who are assumed to be friendly, may not be so. All the focus on the banter of the soldiers is, imho, irrelevant. The issue is whether or not the seemingly innocent journalists were indeed part of a group that posed a threat or not. Perhaps they were accompanying the group for professional reasons, perhaps for other reasons. Perhaps they were being used as human shields by the larger armed group without their knowledge, perhaps not.
Most importantly… What was the entire group doing there? Going to a meeting? Supporting attacks in progress? Trying to negotiate with the insurgents to stop their attacks on the U.S. forces? Planning to find ways to educate the kids in the neighborhood? I did not see any information about the intentions of this large group that clearly was armed. Possibly they were armed with good reason for their own protection. Possibly they were armed with the intention to attack others. Who knows?!
We simply have not got enough information to judge. There is a CentCom report posted above by FuManchu which is the first thing one must read to have ANY kind of opinion on what happened here. The bottom line is that significant additional information is needed before the truth behind what was going on here can be determined – if it in fact can ever be determined. It is good that Anthony got the ball rolling in terms of discussion but let’s be honest that an armchair assessment of this incident is a dubious endeavor at best.
I think ,if they caught them and investigate with him , your answers will be answered . suppose they have weapons so what ,every Iraqi has one, related to the situation there . but the question is ,did they attempt to shoot the American troops, the troops arrive after 8 minutes from destroying the mini van .so there is no engagement yet. and the other question, is the sergeants weapon require this fires from the Apache Helicopter . unfortunately the civilians are targeted without any one bullet from their side, why we can’t accept truth and go around it always. finally it does not mean the us army act like this , from my point of view it is individuals acts ,and it require from the honest man not afraid to face this wrong behavior
“We simply have not got enough information to judge”
Evelyn – do you remeber who wrote these wise words…… right….. keep on!
q
Thanks for writing this, Anthony. I was beginning to feel like the only sane, analytical person out here. It’s absolutely frightening how easy it is to manipulate people. I wonder if the masses would still be coming to these idiotic conclusions that “It’s a WAR CRIME!!!” if the video didn’t have the propoganda preface.
you said it – this war is above the legitimation given by UN
-> Crime
(pers. point of view)
q
you will pay for your sins
Last I checked passing judgement was also a sin. Good job there.
There is no God, so he will not pay for his sins. Sorry to burst your bubble.
And our troops make the calls they feel is best. Who are you to question them, long after the fact? It’s so easy to pass judgment. Why don’t you pick up a weapon and join them. Otherwise keep your mouth shut.
Thx for your analysis. I think you might find some info of interest in the links in this diary:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/4/6/854555/-Wikileaks-Collateral-Murder
The TPM link is significant for the comments posted by “1armywif”. She claims that following this incident Reuters issued a policy statement that their field agents should not embedded themselves with armed insurgents.
NOTE: the Reuters people didn’t have PRESS ID visible and no reporters were noted to be in the area.
In the after action reports there is a mention of a BOLO for a dark vehicle in the area picking up weapons.
I found it suspicious that the van was driving toward the ‘action’ on a street that has no other traffic visible, just going on the principle that generally insurgents would be driving into the fight while non-combatants would have fled the area. We also can not see everything that is happening around the van, the focus is on the one wounded.
I appreciate the sharing of your insight and experiance Martinez. It is helpful for someone like me who is on the outside looking in, to have the oppurtunity to read the opinion of someone with actual experiance.
So what are your thoughts on the bombing of the building towards the end of the video? Somewheres around the 34th minute some men are seen entering a building. The men have been identified as armed insurgents and so the building is attacked with hellfire missiles. Seconds before the “your clear” is given a pedestrian walks into the gun camera view. The innocent man is clearly maimed and most likely killed. What about other occupants are in the building?
The targets who entered the building were not engaged in a fight. No lives were threatened at that time. In this case where no immediate threat was present, Shouldn’t dismounts have entered the building to selectivly engage the insurgents rather than destroying the entire building with missiles? Is this decision to destroy a building and put civilians at risk to kill a few fleeing insurgents a common practice? I don’t understand the justification in destroying the building. ??
Thank you Anthony for your experienced and professional analysis of this leaked video. When these things come out, most often what happens is they are used to attack our military and our efforts to counter the terrorists in the Middle East who wish death and destruction to all that is not aligned with their way of thinking. Unfortunately, mainstream media, which is so powerful since they tend to control the discussion, take off with these things and use them to promote their leftist agenda.
As a Veteran and the father of a twice deployed combat Veteran of both Iraq and Afghanistan, I agree with your clear and well thought out analysis. I also thought it going too far to engage the black Toyota mini-van.
Finally, I thank you for your service and integrity. Clearly, Wikileaks lacks integrity and has an agenda. Thanks for exposing them.
I agree with your belief that mainstream media is powerful and tends to control the agenda, but I think that agenda is anything but leftist.
Wikileaks is not the mainstream media, it’s a whistleblower site. If it has an agenda, it’s simply to present controversial material that some would rather stay hidden for various reasons.